More Defense of the Mass in Vernacular

Pope Benedict XVI during the Consecration with other priests during mass in Manger Square in the West Bank town of Bethlehem.

john said...

The post is very troublesome in its denigration of Latin Masses pre-V2, even by defenders of Latin. That people fall short of doing something well is not an excuse for abandoning it. If that is the standard, then it should be applied equally to the Novus Ordo. Look at the abuses infractions in the Novus Ordo now.

There are pros and cons to both Latin and vernacular. Of course, Latin has not been the common language for centuries but is retained precisely because it is not subject to the whims of fads. The Church has been ruptured before due to a single mistranslation or misunderstanding in its definitions. Look at the case of the English translations of ICEL.

People should be adults and if they cannot understand something, they should seek knowledge instead of lambasting their ignorance. It is sad to hear somebody say they do not understand the kyrie.

The dismal ignorance and the support for RH Bill in a catholic majority country is proof that vernacular is not the panacea extolled. If things are so great in vernacular world of worship, why the widespread ignorance?

Litury is confused with catechesis.Understanding is done by catechesis. In many parishes and dioceses, there is a collapse of catechesis after the change to vernacular in the liturgy. Maybe the idea is that understanding the liturgy makes the faith self-evident.

The irony is that the draconian imposition of Novus Ordo is the last gasp for the Tridentine style of ruling the church. A way that is much maligned by liberals. Never again will the entire church just accept the whims of a Bugnini. SP did not at all impose removing N.O., why make wild conjectures of mass rebellion. Prepare for the new English translation and the hysteria of liberals.

October 25, 2010 8:06 AM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[The post is very troublesome in its denigration of Latin Masses pre-V2,]

EXCUSE ME. IT IS NOT THE LATIN MASSES THAT IS DEGRADED HERE BUT THE ILLICIT SSPX REBELS. DON'T EQUATE THAT GROUP WITH THE LATIN MASS. THEY DO NOT OWN THE LATIN MASS. THEY ARE ONLY USING IT FOR THEIR REBELLION AGAINST THE CHURCH.

[ even by defenders of Latin.]

THE SSPX DOES NOT DEFEND LATIN. IT ONLY USES IT TO FEED ITS REBELLION.

[ That people fall short of doing something well is not an excuse for abandoning it.]

IT IS NOT JUST THE PEOPLE THAT FALL SHORT. THE LATIN LANGUAGE ALREADY FELL SHORT FOR THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS NO LONGER USE IN ACADEME, IN LITERATURE AND IN SCIENCES EXCEPT AMONG THOSE SPECIALIZING IN THAT PARTICULAR LANGUAGE. THUS, IT IS NO LONGER THE LIVING LANGUAGE THAT THE CHURCH HAD CHOSEN IN FAVOR OF GREEK IN THE 4TH CENTURY. AS IT WAS CHOSEN IN FAVOR OF GREEK, IT CAN ALSO BE REPLACED BY ANOTHER ONCE THE LANGUAGE IS NO LONGER UNDERSTANDABLE TO THE PEOPLE.

[ If that is the standard, then it should be applied equally to the Novus Ordo.]

THAT IS AN STANDARD BUT NOT THE ONLY STANDARD. IN LATIN IT IS THE LANGUAGE ITSELF THAT DIED DOWN. IT'S NOT THE FAULT OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS THE NATURAL WEAKNESS OF THE LANGUAGE THAT OUTLIVED ITS USEFULNESS.

THE VERNACULAR IS THE NEW 'VULGATE' OF THE PEOPLE THEN IT MUST BE USED IN THE LITURGY. THERE IS NO DOGMA IN THE CHURCH THAT SAYS THE HOLY MASS MUST BE CELEBRATED IN ONE LANGUAGE ALONE PERPETUALLY. THE USE OF LATIN IS NOT A DOGMA, BUT A PASTORAL NECESSITY... NOW, THAT NECESSITY IS GOD. THE NECESSITY CHANGED IN FAVOR OF THE VERNACULAR.

THE SSPX KEEPS ON SAYING THAT VATICAN II IS PASTORAL. WELL, THE USE OF LATIN IS ALSO PASTORAL.

[Look at the abuses infractions in the Novus Ordo now.]

EXCUSE ME. YOU ARE USING THAT SO CALLED ABUSES IN NOVUS ORDO AS IF THE ABUSES ARE NOT PRESENT IN THE PAST.

THE LITURGICAL ABUSES NOW IS NO MORE THAN THE LITURGICAL ABUSES DURING THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES WHEN PEOPLE WERE DYING DUE TO THEIR SINS AGAINST THE HOLY EUCHARIST AS REPORTED BY ST. PAUL IN 1 CORINTHIANS 11. BEFORE AND AFTER THE COUNCIL OF TRENT THE CHURCH WAS ALSO BESIEGED BY CANONICAL AND LITURGICAL ABUSES. THE ABUSES CONFRONTED BY TRENT IS MUCH TERRIBLE IN DEGREE THAN THOSE WE ARE CONFRONTING TODAY.

DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II THERE WERE ABUSES ALSO. WHAT IS LACKING IS THE TECHNOLOGY THAT RECORDS AND SENDS THESE ABUSES IN THE INTERNET OR TELEVISION FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE.

[There are pros and cons to both Latin and vernacular.]

OBVIOUSLY, AS THE DEBATES DURING THE VATICAN II SHOWED THE PROS IN FAVOR OF VERNACULAR IS MORE THAN THE CONS AND THE CONS IN USING THE LATIN ALONE IS GREATER THAN THE PROS.

[Of course, Latin has not been the common language for centuries but is retained precisely because it is not subject to the whims of fads.]

LANGUAGE IS NOT THE WHIMS OF FADS. IT IS A PRODUCT OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF CULTURE. THE CHURCH USUS THE LANGUAGE UNDERSTANDABLE TO PEOPLE NOT THE ONE THAT IS ONLY THE LEARNED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT COULD UNDERSTAND.

DURING THE PENTECOST THE SPIRIT OF GOD RESPECTED THE LANGUAGE OF PEOPLE FROM VARIOUS PLACES BY MAKING EACH ONE OF THEM UNDERSTAND THE PREACHING OF THE APOSTLES IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. AND THE SAME SPIRIT DIDN'T DECREE THAT LATIN WILL BE THE ONLY LANGUAGE TO BE USED FOR THE DIVINE LITURGY. O NO, NO, NO...

LATIN WAS USED BY THE CHURCH WHEN IT WAS THE 'VULGATE'... THE 'VULGAR' OR COMMON LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE. WHEN IT WAS NO LONGER COMMON THE CHURCH WISELY REPLACED IT.

TO CONTINUOUSLY USE LATIN IS TO FALLOW THE WHIMS AND CAPRICES OF THE FEW ROMANTICS WHO ARE DREAMERS OF THE PAST AND NOT VISIONARY FOR THE FUTURE. PEOPLE WITH STAGNANT MIND AND COLD HEART FOR THE WARM REALITY THAT LATIN IS DEAD.

[The Church has been ruptured before due to a single mistranslation or misunderstanding in its definitions.]

THE CHURCH IS NEVER BEEN RUPTURED. THE CHURCH IS THE CHURCH, ALWAYS AND EVERY WHERE. PROBLEM WITH TRANSLATION FROM TIME TO TIME DOES NOT IN ANY WAY DIMINISH THE CHURCH AND DEFINITELY THERE WAS NO RUPTURE.

[Look at the case of the English translations of ICEL.]

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE TRANSLATIONS OF ICEL? IS THERE ANY HERESY WITH IT? AND MUCH MORE, IT MAY NOT BE A PERFECT TRANSLATION BUT IT IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL AND ENRICHING TRANSLATION.

[People should be adults and if they cannot understand something, they should seek knowledge instead of lambasting their ignorance.]

IT SOUNDS BEAUTIFUL BUT BASICALLY DEFECTIVE.

IF THE LORD JESUS DIDN'T IMPOSE ARAMAIC OR HEBREW ON THE APOSTLES WHY DO YOU IMPOSE LATIN ON US? THE APOSTLES CELEBRATED THE MASS AND WROTE AND PREACHED IN GREEK. THE LATER ON POPE ST. DAMASUS CHANGED IT TO LATIN WITHOUT DETRIMENT TO GREEK RITE AND OTHER ORIENTAL RITES. HOW COME THE USE OF VERNACULAR IS SUDDENLY BECOMING EVIL TODAY?

THE ROOTS OF EVIL TODAY IS NOT THE NOVUS ORDO AND THE VERNACULAR BUT SIN. AND THE ROOT OF HOLINESS IN PRE-VATICAN II LITURGY IS NOT LATIN BUT THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS PRESENT STILL TODAY. THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT EXCLUSIVE IN THE LATIN LANGUAGE. TO CLAIM OTHERWISE IS A MANIFESTATION OF SUBLIME LIES AND STUPIDITY.

[It is sad to hear somebody say they do not understand the kyrie.]

OF COURSE, THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE KYRIE. EVEN IF THEY KNOW ITS TRANSLATION IT IS ONLY KNOWING THE TRANSLATION BUT NOT KNOWING IT INSTINCTIVELY. FOR AN AMERICAN TO SING 'LORD, HAVE MERCY' OR FOR A FILIPINO TO SING 'PANGINOON, MAAWA KA' IS NOT JUST PRAYING THROUGH TRANSLATIONS BUT DIRECT EXPRESSION OF WHAT IS IN YOUR HEART AND MIND AND VERY BEING. THAT IS WHY THE HOLY SPIRIT COMMUNICATES DIRECTLY THROUGH THE NATIVE LANGUAGE OF THE AUDIENCE IN PENTECOST. AS WE ALL KNOW, THE PENTECOST IS THE CHURCH IN ITS SEMINAL FORM OR RATHER THE CHURCH IN HER INFANCY.

[The dismal ignorance and the support for RH Bill in a catholic majority country is proof that vernacular is not the panacea extolled.]

NOT SO. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH AGAINST THE RH BILL. THE CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS INCLUDING MY PERSON AND THIS BLOG AND THE MEMBERS OF DEFENSORES FIDEI AND CATHOLIC FAITH DEFENDERS WHO ARE 99% LAY ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH. WE NEVER HEARD ANY OF THE SSPX PRIESTS OR SUPPORTERS DEFENDING THE CHURCH IN PUBLIC FORUM. THEY SIMPLY JOIN THE ENEMIES. THE HOMOSEXUALS AND FEMINISTS ATTACK THE CHURCH AND THE POPE ON RH BILL, WHILE THE SSPX SUPPORTERS ATTACK THE CHURCH AND THE POPE ON MATTERS OF LITURGY. SEE, YOU ARE NOT WITH THE CHURCH AND THE POPE. YOU BELONG TO THE OTHER SIDE. YOU ARE ONE WITH OUR ENEMIES.

I STILL HAVE TO SEE AN SSPX LAY PERSON TO GO TO THE MEDIA EXPLAINING THE MEANING OF FREEDOM AND CONSCIENCE IN LATIN IN ORDER TO DEBUNK THE RH BILL. SHOW ME ANY VIDEO. ON MY PART, I'VE BEEN ON SEVERAL SEMINARS, RADIO SHOWS ALREADY TOGETHER WITH LAY CATHOLICS DEFENDING THE CHURCH AGAINST THE RH BILL.

DO NOT PROJECT UNTO US YOUR OWN USELESSNESS AND INABILITY. IF YOU CANNOT TRUST THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ON LITURGY THEN YOU CANNOT TRUST HER ON MORAL ISSUES. TO BE TRAITOR IN LITURGY IS TO BE TRAITOR ON MORALS AND ON DOGMA AND ON ALL ASPECTS OF CHURCH LIFE INCLUDING THE CANON LAW.

[If things are so great in vernacular world of worship, why the widespread ignorance?]

THE CATHOLICS DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II ARE MORE IGNORANT. GATHER TOGETHER THE NUMBER OF BOOKS WRITTEN BY LAY DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II? GET THE NAMES OF LAY PREACHERS AND TEACHER OF FAITH BEFORE? ALMOST NONE. NOW, THE CATHOLIC RADIOS, TV's, NEWSPAPERS ARE MOSTLY RUN, ADMINISTERED AND MANNED BY LAY PEOPLE. AFTER VATICAN II LAY CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS ROSE IN PROMINENCE AND THEY WERE ABLE TO CONVERT THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF CONVERTS YEAR AFTER YEAR IN U.S. ALONE. TO THE POINT THAT EVERY YEAR MORE THAN 350,000 ADULT CONVERSIONS ARE HAPPENING IN THE U.S.

GO TO FACEBOOK, GO TO RELIGIOUS BLOGS. THE APOLOGISTS AND CATHOLIC BLOGGERS ARE LAY PEOPLE. THEY ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH ON RH BILL AND ON DOGMATIC MATTERS. ONE OF THEIR ENEMIES ARE THE SSPX DIE-HARDS WHO KNOW NOTHING EXCEPT ATTACKING THE POPE, THE NOVUS ORDO AND VATICAN II. THEY ARE BUNCH OF USELESS AND TREACHEROUS PEOPLE.

[Litury is confused with catechesis.]

THERE IS NO CONFUSION. THERE IS ONLY ESSENTIAL UNITY AND HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO. IN THE LATIN MASS, SO MUCH SILENCE DILUTES THE KERYGMATIC NATURE OF THE LITURGY.

[Understanding is done by catechesis.]

SO, YOU ARE ADMITTING NOW THAT IT IS OK TO BE IGNORANT DURING THE MASS AS LONG AS THE EXPLANATION WILL BE GIVEN THROUGH CATECHESIS. HOW DO YOU GIVE THEM CATECHESIS? SHALL YOU CALL THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED YOUR SUNDAY MASS THE FOLLOWING DAY TO HEAR CATECHESIS?

WHEN JESUS CELEBRATED THE LAST SUPPER, IT WAS LITURGICAL AND AT THE SAME TIME CATECHETICAL. IT WAS SPIRITUAL AND KERYGMATIC AT THE SAME TIME. YOU ARE CREATING A BIFURCATION ON SOMETHING THAT IS ESSENTIALLY UNITED.

[In many parishes and dioceses, there is a collapse of catechesis after the change to vernacular in the liturgy.]

O NO, NO, NO... ACTUALLY THERE IS A MORE ACTIVE CATECHESIS NOW THAN BEFORE. BECAUSE THE SIMPLE PEOPLE ARE SINGING CATHOLIC SONGS USED IN THE MASS EVEN AT HOME AND THEY SERVE AS CATECHESIS. THUS, THE POPULARITY OF 'ANG PANGINOON ANG AKING PASTOL' 'HINDI KITA MALILIMUTAN' 'PURIHIN ANG PANGINOON' WHICH PEOPLE SING FROM THE HEART.

[Maybe the idea is that understanding the liturgy makes the faith self-evident.]

THE IDEA IS THAT UNDERSTANDING THE LITURGY MAKES THE FAITH BETTER UNDERSTOOD BY THE PEOPLE. WHETHER THE MASS IS IN LATIN OR VERNACULAR THERE WILL BE HYPCRISY AMONG THE FAITHFUL. THERE ARE IDIOTS AMONG TLM FOLLOWERS AND ALSO IN NOVUS ORDO. BUT IN NOVUS ORDO IT IS UNDERSTOOD WHILE IN TLM IT IS NOT.

[The irony is that the draconian imposition of Novus Ordo is the last gasp for the Tridentine style of ruling the church.]

THERE IS NO DRACONIAN IMPOSITION OF NOVUS ORDO. THERE IS ONLY THE PONTIFICAL COMMAND FOR ITS UNIVERSAL USE. YOUR LANGUAGE IS MORE PROPER FOR 'DRAGONS' NOT FOR CATHOLICS.

WELL, THE LAST GASP FOR THE TRIDENTINE STYLE OF RULING THE CHURCH IS BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE VATICAN STYLE OF RULING THE CHURCH. THE TRIDENTINE SYTLE BROUGHT AN END TO THE LATERAN STYLE AND THE LATERAN SYTLE BROUGHT AN END TO THE CONSTANTINOPOLITAN STYLE. AND THE CONSTANTINOPOLITAN STYLE BROUGHT AN END TO THE CHALCEDONIAN STYLE.

THESE STYLES ARE NOT DOGMAS. THEY ARE PASTORAL. THEY ARE BOUND TO CHANGE. IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN IN THE TRIDENTINE STYLE THEN JOIN THE 'OLD CATHOLICS'. THE PROCESS OF CHANGE FROM TRIDENTINE TO VATICAN STYLE CAME WITH THE FIRST VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL.

[ A way that is much maligned by liberals.]

THE LIBERALS MALIGNED THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH AND OF THE POPE. EXACTLY THE MANNER OF LEFEBVRE AND HIS COHORTS. THAT IS WHY YOU ARE MORE IN COMMON WITH THEM. THE CHURCH AND THE POPE IS OPPOSED BY THE PRO-RH BILL AND YOU ARE DOING THE SAME ON THE LITURGICAL LEVEL. THE SAME DEMON THAT POSSESSED THESE LIBERALS IS THE SAME DEMON THAT IS POSSESSING YOUR MIND.

THE ULTRA TRADITIONALS AT SO AT PAINED THAT THE LIBERALS MALIGNED THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH YET THEY ARE DOING THE SAME.

[ Never again will the entire church just accept the whims of a Bugnini.]

BUGNINI SIMPLY FOLLOWS THE DIRECTIVE OF POPE PAUL VI.

99.99% OF THE CHURCH RESPECTED THE DECISION OF THE POPE THROUGH BUGNINI ONLY VERY FEW FOLLOWED THE REBELLION OF THAT WACKY OLD FOOL NAMED LEFEBVRE IN DISOBEYING THE POPE. CARDINALS OTTAVIANI, SIRI AND OTHERS REFUSED TO JOIN THE REBELLION OF LEFEBVRE.

YOU CANNOT SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE CHURCH BECAUSE THE ENTIRE CHURCH HAS ALREADY ACCEPTED THE USE OF THE NOVUS ORDO. FROM TIME TO TIME THERE WILL BE FEW THOUSANDS WHO PREFER LATIN OVER VERNACULAR. BUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS LOVE THE USE OF THE VERNACULAR.

[SP did not at all impose removing N.O., why make wild conjectures of mass rebellion.]

I DO NOT MAKE WILD CONJECTURES OF MASS REBELLION. BECAUSE THE FOLLOWERS OF SSPX ARE SURELY NOT ON THE LEVEL OF A 'MASS' OR A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE. THEY ARE SO FEW. YET SO NOISY. AND INDEED THEY ARE IN REBELLION. NOT MASS REBELLION BUT SIMPLY REBELLION. LITURGICAL REBELLION.

[Prepare for the new English translation and the hysteria of liberals.]

THE LIBERALS CAN CRY THEIR HEARTS OUT TILL THEY BLEED TO DEATH BUT THE NEW TRANSLATIONS SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

ON THE PART OF THE SSPX, THE VERNACULAR SHALL BE IN USE WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

October 25, 2010 10:28 AM