The Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Bicci di Lorenzo-
the meaning of prayer was already defined well and pattern was given in the Bible, if you think that the definition made is limited, it is your opinion and I respect you opinion but not your belief.
(You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.)
I found your quoted statement above hypocrisy. Requesting is acknowledging your being incapable of something, that we are nothing, that we are only dust. God is delighted when we pray to Him.
granting without accepting that Hail Mary is a kind of prayer,intercession prayer as you have implied, how many times you recited it? 10 x 5= 50 times. Isn't that repitition? Is your god deaf? That you really need to repeat your prayer at that moment? You have not follow the pattern given by Lord Jesus.
(Psa 115:5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(Psa 115:6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(Psa 115:7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
You missed the real thought of what I tried to implied when I said you passed the burden to Mary to pray for you, it is the task or the service (G5413) and not the one you thought. Since you missed the thought, your judgement is incorrect as well. And i admit I really dont have idea whats in heaven aside from the one written already.
Granting w/o accepting again, Hail Mary is a prayer, how sure are you that she will make a prayer for you. Her spirit is already with God's hand.
(Job 12:10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
(Rev 6:9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(Rev 6:10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(Rev 6:11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I believe St. John in saying that those souls were resting.
so the creed is your profession of faith. is reciting the creed show your one faith?
(Eze 33:31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
even the unclean spirit acknowledged that Jesus is te son of God:
(Mar 5:1) And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
(Mar 5:2) And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
(Mar 5:3) Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
(Mar 5:4) Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
(Mar 5:5) And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
(Mar 5:6) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
(Mar 5:7) And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
(Know this: even publicans, Pharisees, and evil men pray to God to Him for something. And it seems to me you are in good company.)
Yeah I knew that, know this as well:
(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
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i forgot to say thank you for replying my previous comment, i hope the second one will be posted. thanks again.
- Bro. Marwil N. Llasos said...
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jc has left a new comment on your post "PANALANGING PAULIT-ULIT, LABAG BA SA BIBLIA?":
jc said… the meaning of prayer was already defined well and pattern was given in the Bible
[You are selective in the scripture citations that you posted the last time. The only kind of prayer defined in your quotes are prayers of supplication. They don’t deal with other forms of prayer which are also taught in God’s Word. ]
jc said… if you think that the definition made is limited, it is your opinion and I respect you opinion but not your belief.
[Sorry, but it is not only my opinion or belief. And you got me wrong. Review my previous comment and understand it well. It is your definition of prayer that is limited, and not the Bible’s. You arrived at that limited definition because of the selective quotations that you chose. If you review your Bible thoroughly, you’d find other forms of prayer other than prayer of supplication. ]
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jc said…
(You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.)
I found your quoted statement above hypocrisy.
[Please don’t be judgmental? Review what I posted and don’t chop it. This is what I said: “Prayer of REQUEST or SUPPLICATION is only one type or kind of prayer in the Bible. And there are many types of prayer though. So your view of prayer is severely limited to one kind only and doesn’t do justice to all the others taught in the Bible. I am afraid that your view of prayer – as one merely of request or supplication – is very transactional. While in itself is not wrong, as in fact it too is taught in the Bible, singular emphasis on it results in lopsided relationship with God. You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.” Your quoted portion is just an amplification or elucidation of what I mentioned as “transactional” view of prayer. Note that I said that it is not wrong per se as it is also taught in the Bible. I only made a caution, though let me state that it was not intended to be directed to you personally, that singular or lopsided emphasis on asking God for something could focus more on what we get than for what we give.
Then you accuse me of hypocrisy? What is your basis in saying so? Do you have any idea of what my personal prayer life is like? Again, lest I be misconstrued here, I am not against asking God for something (I do that very often!), it’s just that we also need to balance our prayer life by thinking of what I too can give to God, i.e., praise, worship, thanksgiving, etc. Isn’t that what relationship is like? Give and take?]
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jc said… Requesting is acknowledging your being incapable of something, that we are nothing, that we are only dust.
[Yes, this is true. And it was never my intention to shun prayer of request. Far from it. Yet, as you yourself admitted, even Pharisees, publicans, evil men pray thus too. And you said that you knew that very well. And you gave a beautiful verse for that.
I just wonder if the Pharisees for example really acknowledge their incapability, their nothingness before God? Or are they propped up with the feeling of self-sufficiency and pride? I don’t want to judge. But as you said, they already had their reward.]
jc said… God is delighted when we pray to Him.
[Who objects to this? Surely not me. God is a loving Father who delights in the prayer of His children. ]
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jc said… granting without accepting that Hail Mary is a kind of prayer, intercession prayer as you have implied, how many times you recited it? 10 x 5= 50 times. Isn't that repitition?
[Do we say that it’s not repetition? It is repetition. But is there a Biblical prohibition against repetition of prayer? You have to cite me one.]
jc said… Is your god deaf?
[Definitely not. Do we claim that God is deaf? When we praise God, we do that often – repeatedly, do we? Is God deaf not to hear our praise? No. He relishes it . That’s why we read in the book of Psalms, “Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments” (Ps. 119:164). Why do it seven times a day when once would be enough? ]
jc said… That you really need to repeat your prayer at that moment?
[Why not? Again, does the Bible prohibit repetition? I need a verse that says that repetition per se of prayer is wrong. ]
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jc said… You have not follow the pattern given by Lord Jesus.
[Of course we do. And no less than Our Lord engaged in repeating a prayer. The evangelist Matthew reports , “So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing” (Mt. 26:44). Is Jesus’ God deaf that it had to take Jesus pray for the third time saying the same thing? I don’t think so.]
jc said…(Psa 115:5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(Psa 115:6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(Psa 115:7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
[What have these verses got to do with the topic on prayer?]
jc said… You missed the real thought of what I tried to implied when I said you passed the burden to Mary to pray for you, it is the task or the service (G5413) and not the one you thought.
[It’s because you did not make yourself clear. Nevertheless, your accusation that we pass on to Mary to pray for us is inaccurate because we do pray for ourselves (I often pray for my self) and of course ask the prayers of other Christians (and Mary is certainly one of these Christians we ask to pray for us).]
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jc said… Since you missed the thought, your judgement is incorrect as well.
[Because you failed to make yourself clear.]
jc said… And i admit I really dont have idea whats in heaven aside from the one written already.
[That’s why. Thank you for this admission.]
jc said… Granting w/o accepting again, Hail Mary is a prayer, how sure are you that she will make a prayer for you.
[The testimony of answered prayer. For me, it’s no a question that she will pray for me; it is a matter of fact that she does pray for me. My experience, as well as of millions of Catholics (and others), prove that she prays for us and her intercession before God is powerful. All that I have asked the Lord God through the intercession of Mary have been obtained. ]
jc said… Her spirit is already with God's hand. (Job 12:10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
[Precisely. And since her spirit is already with God, she is already in close union with the Divine will. And what is the will of God? “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4).
And what did Our Lord Jesus teach us? To pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Mt. 6:10). If it is God’s will on earth that we be save, it is His same will in heaven. And Mary who is with God knows that and her will is attuned to God’s will. Hence, she too is concerned with our salvation and so with the rest of the “great cloud of witnesses” in heaven (Heb. 12:1).]
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jc said…
(Rev 6:9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(Rev 6:10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(Rev 6:11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I believe St. John in saying that those souls were resting.
[Sad to say, your belief is wrong. The verses that you cited refute you. The souls re not resting, they are crying with a loud voice asking God to avenge their blood on those who dwell on the earth (Rev. 6:10). This is a form of an imprecatory prayer – which is actually an intercessory prayer for the just against the unjust. The words “rest yet for a little season” in the translation that you chose simply means to wait a little longer, as is made clear in the NIV, “Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed” (Rev. 6:11, NIV).
The souls in heaven are not paralyzed nor inactive. On the contrary they are more alive and active now that they are with God. Contrast your view with what the Bible clearly reveals:
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:8-10).
See? They worship the Lamb, they offer incense which are the prayers of the saints on earth, they sing songs, etc. They are alive and active!]
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jc said… so the creed is your profession of faith.
[Yes, precisely.]
jc said… is reciting the creed show your one faith?
[Did I say that? Please don’t put words in my mouth. This is what I said: “What about the Creed? It is not storytelling but our profession of Faith, as St. Paul instructs us, “let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering” (Heb. 10:23). With the Creed, Catholics are in “one faith” in which with “the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). St. Jude tells us to “contend for the faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints may be found in the Apostles Creed.
The Creed has it’s counterpart in the Shema of the Old Testament People of God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord Our God is one Lord” (Dt. 6:4). Deuteronomy 26 informs us that the Lord God instructed the Israelites that when they speak to Him, they should narrate the wondrous works He has done for them (Dt. 26:5-9). Read the verse for yourself. Then you’d realize that that’s story-telling precisely.
Christians on the other hand recite the twelve articles of their Faith contained in the Apostle’s Creed. One of the earliest creedal formulations is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 which now forms part of the Apostle’s Creed. All the twelve articles of faith found in the Creed are Biblical. They are the synopsis of what the New Testament people of God believe and proclaim in which “we all come in the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4:13).]”
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jc said… (Eze 33:31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
[If an individual shows love by mouth yet his heart goes after covetousness, that is his problem. We cannot generalize.
“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men” (Isa. 29:13). It is important that while we honor God with our mouth, it is all the more important that our heart should not be far from Him.]
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jc said…
even the unclean spirit acknowledged that Jesus is the son of God:
(Mar 5:1) And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
(Mar 5:2) And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
(Mar 5:3) Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
(Mar 5:4) Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
(Mar 5:5) And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
(Mar 5:6) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
(Mar 5:7) And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
[Your scripture citations are irrelevant here. So what if the devils acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God? Jesus really IS the Son of God and even the devils acknowledge that. More so. James tells us, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble” (James 2:19).
Just because the devil believes in God does that mean we are not to believe in God? And just because the devil acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God we are no longer to proclaim that He is? “And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Mt. 16:16-17).
Finally, Romans 10:9 says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
You see, what is important here is both the actual confession of the mouth and the faith in our heart.]
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jc said… (Know this: even publicans, Pharisees, and evil men pray to God to Him for something. And it seems to me you are in good company.)
Yeah I knew that, know this as well:
(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[My point precisely. Thank you for admitting this.]
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jc said… i forgot to say thank you for replying my previous comment, i hope the second one will be posted. thanks again.
[Thank you too. Your comment is posted with my reply.]
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