Old Gregorian Chant Hymnal-
How about obedience to the Church. Vatican II mandates that "the use of the Latin language...is to be preserved in the Latin rites..." and that "care must be taken to ensure that the faithful may be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them..." You are saying that we must obey the Council but now you are contradicting one of the Council's decrees. I thought you were Vatican II fans but now you are "disobeying" or "criticizing" Vatican II... Vernacular languages are PERMITTED by Vatican II but the contrary is happening now. It seems that the vernacular languages are MANDATED by Vatican II and the Latin language DISCARDED. But when we read Sacrosanctum Concilium it is clearly stated there that we must still USE, PRESERVE, STUDY, BE TAUGHT (by our priests/RE teachers), SAY or SING in LATIN. It is very sad that even our priests and apologists are saying something negative about the Church's use of Latin. I can still remember when we were still young (here in Mindanao, province area) we can understand Latin as if mystically even if we did not have any training on it. We can understand and grasp more the grandeur of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form that when it is in the vernacular. Look at some of our churches: the Mass can now be understood but few Mass goers. During the era of the Tridentine Mass: the Mass in Latin, "very foreign," but greater participation, learning, awe, solemnity, etc.
- Fr. Abe, CRS said...
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[How about obedience to the Church.]
THE SSPX IS DEFINITELY DISOBEDIENT TO THE POPE AND THE CHURCH. THAT CANNOT BE REFUTED BY GOOBLEDYGOOK REASONING OF THE SSPX SUPPORTERS.
[Vatican II mandates that "the use of the Latin language...is to be preserved in the Latin rites..."]
IT IS PRESERVED IN THE CHURCH.
ALL THE MAJOR DOCUMENTS IN THE CHURCH SUCH AS THE ENCYCLICALS, THE CANON LAW, THE DECREES OF VATICAN II ARE IN LATIN.
THE MASSES OF THE POPE ESPECIALLY THOSE BROADCAST AND AIRED UNIVERSALLY ARE IN LATIN. THERE ARE LATIN MASSES IN THE CATHEDRALS, MONASTERIES, SEMINARIES AND GREGORIAN CHANT IS POPULAR NOW A DAYS.
[and that "care must be taken to ensure that the faithful may be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them..."]
THAT IS NOT A DOGMATIC DECREE BUT A PASTORAL ONE. HA, HA, HA... ISN'T THAT YOUR FAVORITE REASONING? HA, HA, HA...
INDEED, THE CHURCH PRESERVES LATIN AND MANY PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH CAN SING THE GLORIA, SANCTUS AND PATER NOSTER IN LATIN. HOWEVER, IN THE LOCAL SITUATION NOT ALL PARISHES ARE GIFTED WITH MUSIC TEACHER TO TEACH THE GREGORIAN CHANTS AND THE SONGS OF PALESTRINA. THE LOCAL SITUATION CALLS FOR GREATER USE OF THE VERNACULAR. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
LATIN WAS FORMERLY A VULGAR LANGUAGE FOR BARBARIANS AND PAGANS SUCH AS OVID, JULIUS CAESAR, ETC. HOWEVER, THE CHURCH ABANDONED GREEK TO FAVOR LATIN FOR PASTORAL REASON. NOW THAT LATIN IS NO LONGER WIDELY USED AS BEFORE IT IS UNPASTORAL TO INSISTS ON A DEAD LANGUAGE IN THE LOCAL LEVEL.
BUT, YOU CANNOT CLAIM THAT LATIN IS TOTALLY ABANDONED. BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF CHURCHES WHEREIN LATIN, GREGORIAN CHANTS, POLYPHONIC SONGS ARE SUNG IN THE CHURCHES, CHAPELS, MONASTERIES AND SEMINARIES. EVEN THE POPULAR EWTN TV WHICH BROADCAST TO ABOUT 500 MILLION PEOPLE PROMOTES LATIN: THE HOLY MASS AND THE GREGORIAN CHANTS AND THE ORATORIOS. THE SSPX ARE NOT DOING THAT.
BESIDES THE MASS OF POPE PAUL VI IS ALSO ORIGINALLY IN LATIN. AND MANY OF US PRIESTS USE IT FROM TIME TO TIME.
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[You are saying that we must obey the Council but now you are contradicting one of the Council's decrees.]
WE OBEY THE COUNCIL AND WE DO NOT CONTRADICT IT. THE CONTRADICTION IS EXISTING IN YOUR MIND BECAUSE OF PROBABLY IGNORANCE OF HOW THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH PROMOTES AND PRESERVES LATIN ALL OVER THE WORLD. IN FACT, LATIN IS A REQUIREMENT SUBJECTS IN OUR SEMINARIES AND ECCLESIASTICAL DEGREES. FOR SURE WE HAVE MORE SEMINARIANS AND PRIESTS AND THEOLOGY STUDENTS THAN THE SSPX. HE, HE, HE...
[I thought you were Vatican II fans but now you are "disobeying" or "criticizing" Vatican II...]
YOUR THOUGHTS ARE NOT MY THOUGHTS. SO, BETTER FOR YOU TO ATTUNE YOUR THOUGHTS.
[Vernacular languages are PERMITTED by Vatican II but the contrary is happening now.]
IT IS PERMITTED. AND WHEN IT WAS PERMITTED IT BECAME VERY POPULAR THAT IT SWEPT THE WHOLE WORLD. THERE ARE ALSO CLAMOR FOR LATIN IN THE MASSES AND IN THE SONGS. BUT THE GREAT MAJORITY ARE ALSO LOVING AND ENJOYING THE VERNACULAR.
WHEN IT WAS PERMITTED THEN IT IS PERMISSIBLE AND A GOOD THING TO USE. SO, WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM WITH IT? ANY PROBLEM?
IF YOU WANT TO PRESERVE LATIN THEN TELL YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY AND PARISH TO SPEAK IN LATIN DAILY SO THAT YOUR PARISH PRIEST WILL MAKE IT THE PRIMARY LANGUAGE IN THE MASSES THERE. HA, HA, HA...
[It seems that the vernacular languages are MANDATED by Vatican II and the Latin language DISCARDED.]
LATIN IS NOT DISCARDED. IT SIMPLY NATURALLY DIED OUT AS A LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS THE NATURAL COURSE OF HISTORY THAT KILLED LATIN NOT THE LITURGY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. YOU JUST SIMPLY CANNOT ACCEPT THE FACT THAT LATIN HAS FADED AWAY. THAT REALITY IS BEYOND THE CONTROL OF EVERYONE. WHEN ENGLISH FADES LATER ON THE CHURCH WILL ALSO REPLACED IT WITH THE NEW LANGUAGE. THAT IS THE REALITY OF LIFE.
STOP YOUR DELUSIONS IN FAVOR OF REALITY. THE CHURCH PRESERVES LATIN BUT IT IS OF NO AVAIL BECAUSE THE FACT IS THAT LATIN HAS FADED AWAY.
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[But when we read Sacrosanctum Concilium it is clearly stated there that we must still USE, PRESERVE, STUDY, BE TAUGHT (by our priests/RE teachers), SAY or SING in LATIN.]
IT IS BEING DONE. HOWEVER, THAT COMMAND IS NOT DOGMATIC BUT PASTORAL. THE VERNACULAR BLEW LATIN AWAY IN THE PRACTICAL LIFE OF THE CHURCH ON THE GRASSROOTS. BUT OFFICIALLY, THE CHURCH STILL EXERTS EFFORTS TO PRESERVE IT.
[It is very sad that even our priests and apologists are saying something negative about the Church's use of Latin.]
EXCUSE ME. I LOVE LATIN MORE THAN YOU. I AM ONE OF THE FEW PRIESTS IN THIS COUNTRY CELEBRATING THE TRIDENTINE LATIN MASS AND TOGHETHER WITH MY BROTHER PRIESTS WE ARE CELEBRATING THE PAULINE MASS IN LATIN. FOR INSTANCE, IN THE DIOCESAN HOUSE FOR THE CLERGY OUR BISHOP, ARTURO M. BASTES, SVD, DD CELEBRATES THE LATIN MASS WITH PRIESTS AND SEMINARIANS WEEKLY IN ORDINARY FORM. THE SAME IN OUR SOMASCAN SEMINARY IN PAMPANGA AND IN TAGAYTAY.
[I can still remember when we were still young (here in Mindanao, province area) we can understand Latin as if mystically even if we did not have any training on it.]
PRAISE THE LORD FOR YOUR MENTAL PROWESS BUT I HOPE YOU WILL ALSO DENY THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE SAME MENTAL ABILITY THAT YOU HAVE. YOU UNDERSTAND IT PROBABLY BECAUSE OF FAMILIARITY WITH THE TEXT BUT NOT REALLY HAVING AN INSTINCTIVE UNDERSTANDING OF ITS GRAMMAR, SYNTAX, EXPRESSIONS AND THE RICHNESS OF ITS EVERY VOCABULARY. STILL YOU WERE VERY MUCH IMPAIRED.
UNLIKE THE MASSES TODAY WHO ARE TRULY UNVEILED TO THE EARS AND THE HEART AND THE MIND OF THE WORSHIPERS.
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[We can understand and grasp more the grandeur of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form that when it is in the vernacular.]
O I DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH. I HAVE TALKED TO MANY FORMER ALTAR BOYS WHO ARE NOW OLD. THEY TOLD ME ABOUT THE JOKES THEY WERE DOING WHILE THE PRIESTS WERE CELEBRATING WITH HIS BACK ON THEM. THEY WERE TELLING ME OF OLD PEOPLE JUST RECITING NOVENAS AND ROSARIES DURING CONSECRATIONS AND ALSO SLEEPING BECAUSE OF THE PROLONGED SILENCE.
HAVE YOU HEARD HOW THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THOSE TIMES JOKED ABOUT 'SAECULA SAECULORUM'? THEY WERE SINGING ON THE STREETS ACCORDING TO MY LOLO: "KOLORUM, KOLORUM... KINULA ANG KOLORUM'. HA, HA, HA... HOW ABOUT THE 'SPIRITUM FACTUM' BEING USED AS A JOKE: "IMPAKTUM, IMPAKTUM...". DO YOU KNOW THAT? HAVE YOU HEARD THAT? IF YOU THINK THAT THE LITURGY OF PRE-VATICAN II WERE ALL GLORY AND BEAUTY YOU ARE OUT OF REALITY. EVEN DURING THE APOSTOLIC TIMES THERE WERE ABUSES.
I HAVE TALKED TO MANY OLD PRIESTS WHO ARE SO HAPPY THAT THE RIGID AND METICULOUS RITE WAS REPLACED BY A MORE SIMPLE ONE. AND THEY ALSO TOLD ME THAT THE RICHLY DECORATED VESTMENTS OF THE PRIESTS SCANDALIZES THE POOR IN THEIR POVERTY AND SIMPLICITY.
AS A YOUNG SEMINARIAN I ALSO INTERVIEWED A LOT OF OLD PRIESTS AND MONSIGNORI, AS WELL AS OLD FOLKS. I ASSURE YOU MORE ARE IN FAVOR OF THE CHANGE. ONLY WHEN I STUDIED IN PHILOSOPHY DID THE SSPX ISSUE CAME TO ME BUT IT WAS NOT A BIG FACTOR FOR ME THEN BECAUSE OUR PEOPLE LOVES THE VERNACULAR MASS.
DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE GRANDEUR ALSO LOOK AT PASTORAL REALITY.
[Look at some of our churches: the Mass can now be understood but few Mass goers.]
HA, HA, HA... YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY LYING HERE. I'VE VISITED SO MANY PLACES OF THE COUNTRY AND EVERYWHERE I GO THE CHURCHES ARE FILLED EVERY SUNDAY. MANY CHURCHES HAVE SEVERAL MASSES IN EVERY PARISH. HA, HA, HA... MAY BE THERE ARE ONLY 1O HOUSES IN YOUR HOMETOWN THAT IS WHY. HE, HE, HE...
THAT IS A COMMON LIE OF THE SSPX. THAT THE CHURCHES ARE GETTING EMPTY. IN EUROPE MAY BE. BUT NOT HERE IN THE PHILIPPINES. I WAS TOLD THAT IN INDONESIA THE FERVOR OF THE PEOPLE IN THE MASS IS SO GREAT THAT WHILE SINGING THEY WERE EVEN CRYING WITH TEARS OF JOY. THE SAME THING IN AFRICA.
THE EMPTINESS OF CHURCHES IN EUROPE IS CAUSED NOT BY VATICAN II BUT BY PORNOGRAPHY, ABORTIONS, HOMOSEXUALITY, DRUGS, VICES, BUSINESS, ETC.
[During the era of the Tridentine Mass: the Mass in Latin, "very foreign," but greater participation, learning, awe, solemnity, etc.]
THAT IS NOT TRUE. THERE WERE ALSO ABUSES BEFORE. THERE WERE PRIESTS ACCORDING TO OUR OLD PRIESTS WHO WERE CUTTING THE PRAYERS OF THE MASS TO MAKE IT SHORT. THE HOMILY WAS ONLY PURE SHOUTING DECLARING THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE AS IF THE ENTIRE ASSEMBLY ARE ALWAYS IN MORTAL SIN.
THERE WERE ALSO PRIESTS IMPREGNATING WOMEN BEFORE AND MOLESTING BOYS. BUT THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE VICTIMS PREFER TO BE SILENT BECAUSE THERE WERE NO MEDIA THEN TO EXPOSE THE EVIL DONE.
DON'T PRETEND AS IF THERE WERE NO MORTAL SINS DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II CHURCH. EXCUSE ME. SEXUAL, LITURGICAL, ECONOMIC, SOCIAL, POLITICAL ABUSES ARE PRESENT IN THE WORLD OR IN THE CHURCH DURING THE TIME OF POPE PETER, POPE PIUS V [THAT IS WHY THERE WERE REFORMATION THEN DUE TO ABUSES AND SCANDALS] OR PIUS XII OR BENEDICT XVI.
THE CHURCH IS ALWAYS COMPOSED OF SAINTS AND SINNERS FROM THE FIRST CENTURY UNTIL NOW. DON'T TELL ME THAT YOUR ERA IS HOLIER THAN OUR AGE TODAY. THE SINS OF THE WORLD TODAY ARE BROADCASTED BY TV AND RADIO. DURING THOSE TIMES THEY ARE SIMPLY KEPT IN SECRET. PADRE DAMASO IS NOT A VATICAN II PRIEST BUT A PRE-VATICAN II. PHILIPPINE HISTORY CAN ATTESTS TO THE CORRUPTION AND EVIL AND IMMORALITIES PRESENT IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE SOCIETY DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II ERA.
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